Tag Archives: Vault doors

Why You Should Not Buy a Gun Safe Online

Internet sales are increasing all the time, but buying some things online is just not a good idea.

Take kayaks, for instance. You should never buy a kayak online because kayaks are very personal in nature. The correct model will be dictated partly by the purpose for it, whether it will be used for speed, stability, fishing, rivers vs. lakes, etc. But your personal height, weight, width and need for comfort will dramatically affect how the boat feels and performs. An expert sales person can be critical to making a good decision, and you will probably be allowed to try it in the water.

Now, you could use that sales person’s expertise to decide which kayak is right for you, then turn around and buy it online to save a few dollars. But that behavior sucks!! You should reward the sales person, and that brick & mortar business for their service. They pay local taxes and provide local jobs. You can buy from what I call “the cheapest whore” on the internet (pardon me), but he doesn’t care at all about you and has done nothing but make a few dollars off someone else’s work.

In my opinion gun safes and vault doors are other things that should not be bought over the internet, for some of the same reasons. While gun safes obviously are not affected by aerodynamics and buoyancy in water, their construction details are critically important to security. There is more to it than can be shown with a few pictures. An in-person conversation with a knowledgeable safe expert will be immensely helpful, compared to buying something online just based on price.

Most folks don’t know anything about buying a gun safe. They may try to research online, but the majority of what is found there is wrong and misleading anyway. Often a friend tells them which brand of safe they bought, but that friend probably doesn’t really know what he bought either. For some people the next step is to look online for the cheapest place to buy that same model the friend bought.

I recently stumbled across a website where they sell over twenty brands of gun safes. Most brands that you have heard about are supposed to be in stock, and I am sure that their price is pretty good. It has to be, because they make their sales by being “the cheapest whore”. But here is the issue: While some of these gun safes are good, most are cheap, inferior Chinese products. Some come from the same Chinese factories and the primary difference is the name on the front of the safe. Some of the brands being sold advertise a certain thickness of steel but actually use thinner steel than advertised. (The importers don’t know what to say when confronted by someone with a micrometer who actually measures thickness.) Some of these brands use recycled pieces of drywall for insulation. I have been told by one of the importers that he knows the fire ratings are bogus, and that some have never been tested. Many have inferior locks. Etc., etc.

Here is the point to my rambling: This particular internet seller — and others who may operate the same way – are they ignorant of what they are selling or do they just choose to lie about what they are selling? In either case do they deserve your hard-earned dollars? If they actually cared about their customer, wouldn’t they make a value judgement about what they sell? For instance, “Brand A and brand B are the same product except for the name on front. Brand C is almost exactly the same price as A and B, but it has a more secure boltworks. So my decision is to sell C but not A or B.” Or “I know that brand X costs slightly less than brand Z, but I know that X lies about the amount of steel they use, so I will sell only Z”. Doesn’t honesty count for anything?

Yes, low price is important to many people. Even at the low end, however, some products have more value at the same price. If a mis-informed customer wants to buy a Brand Q gun safe the easiest thing is to sell it to him and make a few bucks. A better thing to do is suggest something in the same price range that offers more security or a legitimate fire rating. The best thing to do is not even carry the safe with the worst value proposition.

I choose not to sell any low-end gun safes at all, because I won’t risk our reputation by selling inferior products. Appearance becomes more important at the high end, but the same value principle applies to expensive vaults. Appearances aside, if there are three different models in the $4000 price range, one will offer more security for the money. Shouldn’t an honest, knowledgeable business owner sell that brand, or the two best? Shouldn’t the sales person at least point out which one is better?

Support that local locksmith or safe dealer who takes the time to honestly help you make a good decision, who will point out the best value proposition, rather than just take your money. There is real value in what he does. His overhead is higher because the brick & mortar building is required to provide that service. That is the business to work with, even if it costs a few dollars more.

Safes and Locks for Marijuana Dispensaries and Suppliers

The medical marijuana industry is here and gaining acceptance. Things are still evolving for growers and dispensaries, which can make the business side of it difficult. From what we see some of those issues are:

Cannabis dispensaries and growers are much more likely to suffer break-ins than traditional businesses. The product involved, and the perception that huge amounts of cash are involved, make dispensaries tempting targets.
Insurance may be difficult to obtain which opens up business owners to out-of-pocket losses.
Start-up loans are extremely hard to get, so more out-of-pocket money is required to open a business.
Banking difficulties may require that more cash be kept on-site.
Regulations are likely to change at the local, state and federal levels. What you spend today to comply with regulations might be wasted money by next year.

In one way or another, the following products will help with physical security issues: Door locks & hardware, safes & vault doors, camera systems, alarm & monitoring systems. Hoogerhyde deals with the first two of these.

Locks: A dispensary’s building should have high security locks. Avoid using residential quality locks that you buy at box stores. Commercial grade locks are much stronger so they will slow down would-be burglars. Restricted key systems will prevent employees from having duplicate keys made without authorization. Consider up-grading to keyless locks to eliminate keys altogether.

Safes: Most cannabis suppliers for whom we have provided safes have chosen to save money by purchasing less security than we would recommend. This is usually because cash is in short supply when starting the business without bank loans. Naturally, safes are important for protecting inventory and cash. We always have a selection of used high security safes in stock to help save money.

If a business does not have good insurance a break-in could cause a major financial loss. Top notch physical security then becomes especially important, to minimize potential loss. Besides that, a vault with a high security rating may be a requirement to be insured. One of our dispensary clients who purchased what we consider to be an appropriate safe, was told by his insurance company that a TL-15 rated safe was needed to obtain coverage.

If the federal government eventually relaxes marijuana laws, it may require suppliers to comply with the same D.E.A. requirements that it dictates when dealing with other controlled substances. In that case the dispensary that initially bought a cheap safe would need to spend money again to buy a TL-15.

Hoogerhyde Safe can help protect your medical marijuana business. Out store is in Grand Rapids but we deliver to anywhere in Michigan. We have a big assortment of new and used safes, from small to huge — and vault doors. We also have the knowledge to answer your questions. In addition, we can increase your building’s security by installing high quality locks and key systems.

Electronic Locks on Safes and Gun Safes

A great recent development in security is the electronic safe lock. The majority of gun safes, vault doors and commercial safesgun now come with them. They are easier and faster to use than traditional combination locks. Another advantage is that owner can easily change the combination himself, whenever he wants, without calling a locksmith or safe expert.

Well, while working on a project last week I discovered something interesting. One of the safe manufacturers told me they actually – intentionally – make it hard for consumers to find instructions on changing codes for their electronic locks. They do this because most of their dealers don’t tell the consumer how to change codes and don’t give them operating instructions. That way the dealer can charge a fee for going to the customer’s home and doing it.

I don’t know whether this is treating the consumer unfairly or not, but it seems greedy. We always provide personal instruction as well as owner’s manuals for electronic locks. We do charge when changing combos on mechanical locks because there is potential for the safe owner to make an expensive mistake.

When buying a safe, gun safe or vault door with an electronic lock, make the dealer give you instructions for the lock.

Used Vault Doors For Sale

The photo shows a used Mosler vault door that we just got from a bank which is being gutted. It is a U.L. certified two-hour fire rated door. Many banks have fire rated vault doors in addition to the heavy stainless steel units on their high security vault room. When these fire doors are removed carefully they remain good and flat with no distortion. All you will need to do is repaint it. When removed incorrectly they frequently have twisted frames, thresholds which are not flat, boltworks that no longer work properly, etc. Like with a gun safe, the fit of the door and seals are really important.

One of the nice things about buying a used door like this one is that they are reasonably priced. We usually sell them for $2000 or less. Another thing is that the fire ratings are legitimate. I believe there is only one company left who makes vault doors with certified fire ratings, and they are really expensive. So why is it that you can find lots of manufacturers who sell new vault doors with “fire ratings”? It is because they just make up their ratings! Their doors have never been tested, they lie to you to make a sale.

Anyway, if you want really good fire protection on that vault room you are building look for a used vault door with a U.L. Certified fire rating from companies like Molser, Schwab, Diebold or LeFebure. Check it out well to make sure it is in good condition.

Most Gun Safes Do Not Seal Properly in Fires

Earlier posts talked of the problem with gun safes having only one seal. We have two safes in our shop from different manufacturers that went through fires, and they demonstrate the point perfectly.

Gun safe manufacturers all talk about having the intumescent seal which is supposed to protect your valuables in a fire. The theory is that when you have a fire, heat will cause the intumescent seal to swell up and seal the door shut. But in many fires the gun safe does not get hot enough for the seal to work, allowing heat and smoke to enter between the door and frame. Pictured is a gun safe with a “60 minute fire rating” which uses only the intumescent seal. While the safe got coated with sooty smoke it did not get very hot, so the seals did not expand. The paint will clean up fine; everything inside, however, was damaged by heat, acidic smoke, cinders and ash. You can see that the seals never expanded. Pictures of the interior show damage from smoke, ash & cinders. Ironic: The “Fire Safe” label is coated with soot and smoke that the “fire safe” did not protect against.

The plain fact is that for good fire protection gun safes need at least two different seals. One needs to seal the door ALL THE TIME, whenever the door is closed. See posts dated 7-6-15 and 7-20-15 for details. Fort Knox gun safes use an airtight fin-type seal on most of their units and Amsec uses a foam cushion. In both cases the gap between the door and frame is closed even when the safe is cold.

Seal systems on gun safes and vault doors are not a minor point – they are one of the most critical features. Yes, you might need to pay a little more for real protection, but there is no point in paying less for a product which does not work!

Vault Doors by Graffunder

The photo shows a Graffunder vault door waiting to be delivered and installed (handle spokes not yet installed). This unit is an in-swing version, in the smaller of their two sizes, a VB7834. The paint is textured “Medusa Gray” with chrome hardware, which I like because it seems to show the depth and the lines.

Even though this is Graffunder’s smaller size and lightest construction it still weighs 1300# and has plenty of strength built into it. The door is ½” solid plate steel, the outside and inside frames are 5/8″ and ½” respectively, and the threshold plate is 1” solid steel. Like the doors on Graffunder gun safes, Graffunder vault doors fit tighter into the frame than any others on the market. There is absolutely no way to insert any kind of prying tool. They also have special lock protection, unique relockers and other security features not found on other units.

Graffunders are the very best. Other good, less expensive options are American Security, Golden Spike or Fort Knox vault doors. If you are building a new home, or if your existing home has a place for one, a walk-in vault door is a terrific addition that adds value to your home.

Coolest Gun Safe on the Market, From Fort Knox

Fort Knox Safes is famous for allowing the consumer to customize the gun safe he wants. This year Fort Knox introduced two more options that offer cool new looks, more ways to get your gun safe your way.

Old, very retro industrial design is fashionable. This is especially true where old factories and warehouses are being converted into desirable apartments and condos. Fort Knox’ new “Distressed Industrial” finish fits right in. Each gun safe is different with the addition of big rivets and random distress marks to the paint. Besides rehabilitated industrial buildings these units look good in your work shop area or man cave.

The other terrific new option is Fort Knox’ crane hinge. This is also a throw-back to the old days. A hundred years ago very heavy safes and vault doors were frequently built with crane hinges to help the doors move more freely. This system makes safe doors that are actually double-hinged, so they move in a more three dimensional manner. Crane hinges are available on all Fort Knox gun safes (except Mavericks) and in all finishes. D6031 and D7240 shown.

If you want to really impress your friends — and get serious security at the same time — get a Fort Knox gun safe or vault door with the new Distressed Industrial finish and crane hinges. Awesome!

Getting Service After You Buy Your Gun Safe

A man whose gun safe we drilled open in late November relayed the following story:

Early in 2015 Jeff purchased a gun safe at a box store thinking it was decent quality and American made. (It wasn’t because this “manufacturer” imports 100% of their product.) Jeff’s safe malfunctioned and locked him out in late September. He was disappointed but not too concerned because opening day of deer season was still eight weeks away — surely he would have no trouble getting to his favorite rifle by then.

Jeff tried numerous times to call the company’s warranty department to arrange for the gun safe to be opened. Eventually he got an answering machine and was able to leave a message. After waiting a week or so without getting a return call the process was started over again. A few weeks later he reached a real person who apparently dropped the ball, because nothing happened again. He started over once more but the “customer dis-service” continued until after opening day of deer season. Jeff ended up borrowing a rifle to hunt with. He was not happy.

Obviously, few warranty issues take that long to get resolved, but some gun safe companies are known for their poor customer service. A little online research will tell you which companies to avoid. Buying you gun safe or vault door from a business that can service them will also save you from this kind of trouble.

Where You Buy A Gun Safe or Vault Door Affects Security

About six years ago a California company wanted me to buy some of their chinese made gun safes which have a nice patriotic, all-American name. The prices were very good for safes with 11 gauge steel bodies. I ordered two to test the quality. When the gun safes arrived the steel was 2.5MM rather than 11 gauge — 17.7% less steel than advertised. (This is a very common lie, Chinese steel is usually in millimeters but importers advertise guage thickness.) The paint was also flawed, shelves were weak and the seals were coming off. We sold these units at our cost and never bought any more.

That company is still selling these products online directly to consumers, and through a few resellers. A small number make it into our area that way. We do service work for this California company when their products have problems. Their quality still sucks!

Last week we got a call from a lady whose husband had purchased one of these gun safes online. He has died and she did not have the combination. We told her that we could open it for a reasonable fee. We also told her that if she could find the serial number the company may have a record of the combination; but it might be a hassle to get it from them because they have no idea who she really was. I explained that they would probably want a notarized letter proving who she was, and might also ask for a death certificate. That made sense to her.

The woman called back 20 minutes later. She was shocked that the company gave her the combination without even asking her last name!! She thought we should know how careless the company is with people’s security.

People selling gun safes talk about protecting your valuables. But you need to be aware that many of them, especially online sellers, are just there to make easy money. Once they get your money they don’t care about you or the fact that you may put your life savings in their safe. They don’t want to be bothered by following appropriate security procedures.

Think about this: A visitor to your home might be able to write down the serial number of your safe, and then get the combination just by making a phone call! He could open your safe when you’re gone and empty it, leaving you to wonder how someone cleaned you out. Comforting, isn’t it? How much would you lose if this happened to you? You need to be really careful about what gun safe or vault door you buy and where you buy it.

Gun Safe Boltworks, Part 4: Cam or Gear Drive

The majority of gun safes and vault doors come with cam drives. Turn the handle and the spindle transfers that motion to some kind of cam inside the door. The cam then transfers the motion to some type of linkage that moves the bolt bars in or out. Safes with cam drives are easier for burglars to open than safes with gear drives. Why, then do most gun safe manufacturers use cams? Because they make more money selling cheaper (less secure) safes. Consumers almost never see what’s inside the door of their safe, and store personnel don’t know enough to tell them. Without good information, consumers will sacrifice security for a cheaper price.

Besides offering better security, gear drives make for smoother operation when opening and closing the safe. On most gun safes, whether operated by cam or gear, the handle turns about one quarter to one third of a turn. I especially like the “cool factor” of a handle that spins completely around several times, like Fort Knox’ 5 to 1 rack & pinion drive mechanism.

The safe on the left with a cam drive is much less secure than the unit on right. Both are made in American, but notice the difference in quality and craftsmanship . It is hard to tell from the picture but the cam is assembled with press-on fasteners, and the external re-locker was installed incorrectly at the factory.

When looking to buy a gun safe, learn about all the major features – the locks, the type of insulation they use, how the insulation is mounted, how much steel there is, how the boltworks are made, etc. Buy from a place that knows the differences and is willing to show you.